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 New and improved 1850...? 
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 81
GNTKLLR wrote:
Mattax wrote:
Might try the kill bleeds high (if the connection to the main well is clear) and decide from there.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1152

Seems like the high position may delay start up (compared to the lower position into the angle channel) of the mains.
Last post viewtopic.php?f=25&t=935

if it the transition to mains is too rich, then experiment with wire or plugging and redrilling if you're up for the challenge. Not much meat there.


Thank you for the links. They confirm what I was already thinking. I think correcting/reversing the Holley dumb-ass-ery, eliminating high-up air bleeds for emulsion tubes where there are no emulsion tubes... should work fine. This particular situation is, IMHO, not enough carburetor, a 600 on a 351W, that will be mostly idling or crawling along off-road, and then with frequent bursts to wide open throttle. Who's going to notice if the transition to the primary main circuit happens to be a tad earlier or rich? Nobody. I hear you, and if this were mine I might do things a little bit differently.


I would not quite call it Holley Dumbassery. Remember they designed these in 1957 or before for Ford for a 1958 430 inch engine. I bet those had a pretty good signal to the mains. ;)


Thu May 18, 2017 11:57 am
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The bleed high in the dog-leg is a vestige of the original version which has an emulsion tube in the main well, the bleed connects through the tube holder to the interior of the E-tube, four .024" holes in the tube are located at the same vertical location as the upper E-hole drilled in the block (approximately float level).

The picture below is an early 1850 block with E-tube.
Image

When the block has the high bleed for the E-tube and does not have the tube installed, the air from the bleed enters the fuel flow at the intersection of the angle channel and vertical main well, which is approximately the same vertical location as the upper E-hole, the result is similar to a second E-hole at the upper E-hole location. Production tolerance having been somewhat sporadic over the decades, a potential issue is when the vertical location of the intersection of the angle channel and main well is not the same on both sides, one booster will start before the other.

A "kill-bleed" is not necessary in every carb. I think the reason they are so common is they were used in the OE high performance carbs Holley double-pumpers evolved from, such as the 3310 and other Chevy 780-800 CFM units (and monkey see monkey do).

Depending on carburetor design (Holley and others), another function of a kill-bleed is to discourage percolation by venting vapor.

The earliest air bleed patent was for the purpose of venting vapor to prevent percolation, and, unfortunately for that patent holder, did not describe the air bleed effect in correction or manipulation of A/F or the effect of emulsifying air and fuel, so when others started using bleeds for "air correction" and "emulsion" purposes that poor guy was out in the cold.

The problem this gentleman is having viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1304 with the "Adjust-A-Jet" metering blocks becoming stupid rich on a hot engine may be related to the block design not incorporating adequate vapor venting capacity.


Thu May 18, 2017 3:04 pm
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 81
I went and looked at my 1850 no dash and it indeed does have the flat plug with the tube, unlike my 1850-3 block. Very interesting.

Question the bowl vent lever type with open bowl hole, that the 1850 No Dash's have, could that factor into all this venting puzzle?


Thu May 18, 2017 5:15 pm
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I am doing a 4452-1 today and it's block is interesting. This is a 1968 Ford 302-429 Generic Ford replacement around 600VS.

It's block has the flat main plugs and it has the High Up hole like GNTKillers and the angle break hole like DP's. No emulsion holes down the back side of the block in the normal spot. Has a open lever bowl vent also.

I know what you are talking about in the other thread on the bi-metals. I have several Mopar Holley 383 and 440 Hipo 735VS carbs. with that feature.

I am led to believe it was used somehow on cars with A/C with a solenoid to kick the idle up on high temperature operation.

Can you shed some light on this?


Thu May 18, 2017 6:59 pm
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Location: Canada
Mattax wrote:
Mike - Are the new cup plugs in the main wells deep enough to block the holes?
Would that work? or would a sleeve have to go in?
(Thinking about that 650 VS in my collection..)


Good eye. No, not quite, juuuuuuuuuust above 'em. The JB-Weld is the blocker (bleed only, not channel, because... MABs). I didn't bother creating 1/4" any deeper than they already are, so the cup plugs went down to where you see them. I suppose a guy could drill the 1/4" to a deeper depth and put the plugs down further.

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Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Thu May 18, 2017 7:49 pm
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supervel45 wrote:
GNTKLLR wrote:
supervel45 wrote:
I went through my blocks and pulled a 10884 which I had marked 1850-3 at some point. My 1850-5 has the same block number also.

It has the same holes up high that you JB Welded for what it matters, and they are .027"-.028".


Have they got emulsion tubes? If they do, their existence makes sense.


No, they don't.


Hmmm... since they're not necessary elsewhere in blocks with no emulsion tubes, I don't know why they might be necessary in these straight-leg-boostered LIST-1850-X 600's...

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Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Thu May 18, 2017 8:14 pm
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
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supervel45 wrote:
GNTKLLR wrote:
supervel45 wrote:
I went through my blocks and pulled a 10884 which I had marked 1850-3 at some point. My 1850-5 has the same block number also.

It has the same holes up high that you JB Welded for what it matters, and they are .027"-.028".


Have they got emulsion tubes? If they do, their existence makes sense.


No, they don't.


Just to clairify I meant the 1850-3 blook I looked at did not have emulsion tubes.

I guess you would have to run 2 blocks back to back with a wideband to see if there is any difference.

I kind of doubt it would be much though.


Thu May 18, 2017 8:29 pm
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
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Location: Canada
Yes

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Thu May 18, 2017 9:18 pm
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