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 New and improved 1850...? 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canada
Got a LIST-1850-13 (no, it's not on any "Numerical Listing" I've seen either, even Holley's newest...) to rebuild. It's date code is 3340, it's all aluminum (the surprising light weight is nice), and polished, non-adjustable needle & seat bowls with pretty checkered flag sorta graphics cast in... owner says he bought it 5-6 years ago. I'm thinking not bought new by that date code, which in this case, I think the 0 probably means the year 2000. He also brought a beater LIST-9834 for it's adjustable needle & seat bowls to install. Anyway, I couldn't not share some things about this new-fangled carburetor with you guys, that solidly reaffirms never to assume anything, especially with the shiny razzle-dazzle newer stuff... pics...


Pretty grubby start...

Image

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MB # 11761...

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Cup plugs up top...

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... and these bleeds high into the main wells...

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#9 secondary metering plate...

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E-holes on right/passenger's side of PMB, wonderfully cockeyed, but do each measure 0.028"...

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E-holes on left/driver's side of PMB...

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... look the same, don't they? Well, looks can be deceiving. I went to insert the same drill shank, no-go. Smaller bit, nope... smaller... smaller... down to 0.015", nope... they are not final orifice-size drilled into the main wells AT ALL!!! What you see is simply dirty or something at the point of the bigger drilling, and/or the small holes JUST began to be drilled, but never were... :wft?: I wonder how stupid this thing ran, if acceptably at all...


Well, the good news is that it cleaned up not bad...

Image


This piece of new and improved technology, mapped out:

PIFR: 0.028"
EBs: R 0.028"; L not drilled... (Yowza?!?!?)
PVCRs: 0.046"
High-up primary main well bleeds: 0.027"
PMJs: #65
PIABs: 0.080" (kinda big...)
PMABs: 0.028"
SIFRs: 0.023" (huh? secondary metering plate #9's are to have 0.031"...)
SMJs: 0.071" (huh? secondary metering plate #9's are to have 0.067"...)
SIABs: 0.046"
SMABs: 0.025"


Your thoughts, feedback, and any input regarding this thing (obviously, I'm going to drill the e-holes) is greatly appreciated. Thank you. :)

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Sun May 14, 2017 11:12 pm
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canada
Correction, I guess a date code of 3340 could mean the year 2010...? I still have to contact the owner with my findings and some questions about missing and changed items with it.

As well, the briefly described application is an off-road Bronco, with a fresh, mild-cammed 351W going into it. I'm not real familiar with off-roading, but I am assuming there's a fair bit of foot-flat-on-the-floor in the cards... as a bit of horse-trading for doing this is a mid-'70's 351W (I wanna get a Windsor into the Mustang) with a spun bearing...

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Mon May 15, 2017 1:56 am
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:41 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Phila. Penn.
Quote:
and these bleeds high into the main wells...

Is it possible there is a tube in the main well or is open?

Also, what is going on with the big angle channels that connect to the boosters?
In the photos it looks like giant holes - is that just casting iregularities or are they really holes?


Mon May 15, 2017 8:06 am
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canada
Mattax wrote:
Quote:
and these bleeds high into the main wells...

Is it possible there is a tube in the main well or is open?

Also, what is going on with the big angle channels that connect to the boosters?
In the photos it looks like giant holes - is that just casting iregularities or are they really holes?


It's possible, but if there are they're real short (and I don't know what purpose that would serve), because I can't see anything down the booster supply angle drillings. I'd rather not, with only a few cup plugs on hand right now, but I may remove the main well plugs to get the full picture. I'm thinking the high-up bleeds into the main wells would do the opposite of what kill bleeds do, and so encourage sooner main circuit start-up, as opposed to kill bleed delay, sorta like to "shotgun" a can of beer by stabbing a hole up top of the upside-down can, allowing rapid expulsion, lol?

If you mean what you see where kill bleeds would go into the booster supply angle drillings, those are just (quite pronounced, but yes just in the aluminum casting, not through or drilled at all into the booster supply angle drillings) location dimples for drilling kill bleeds.

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Mon May 15, 2017 9:22 am
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:41 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Phila. Penn.
Quote:
If you mean what you see where kill bleeds would go into the booster supply angle drillings, those are just (quite pronounced, but yes just in the aluminum casting, not through or drilled at all into the booster supply angle drillings) location dimples for drilling kill bleeds.
Yes. OK. Good!

Quote:
It's possible, but if there are they're real short (and I don't know what purpose that would serve), because I can't see anything down the booster supply angle drillings. I'd rather not, with only a few cup plugs on hand right now, but I may remove the main well plugs to get the full picture.

Since the block seems confused, was thinking it possibly got tubes...??
But I think they're just a type of kill bleed, except maybe it doesn't work as a syphon break.
diagram from Mtrhd may help thinking about this.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1444&start=40#p13764
Also there in the posted photo is primary block from 4150/60 that also has a connecting hole to the main well high in the dog leg. It's from a List 80783 (650cfm Vac Secondary). mid 1990s vintage?
Sorry I don't have close-up of the metering block.


Mon May 15, 2017 10:20 am
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canada
Fun fact: I just received a good used 80457 (600 VS), date code 2986, that I bought. It's got a 11761 MB on it, and the same high-up bleeds into the main wells, and I haven't checked and mapped it all out yet, but it has flat top caps on and tubes into the main wells. I'm thinking, and I'm wondering now, if I shouldn't block the high-up main well bleeds in the 11761 block that's with the above 1850-13, treating it like a no-tubes MB, since it hasn't got any tubes in it anyways...?

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Mon May 15, 2017 3:34 pm
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 80
Yes 1850's are supposed to have a #9 Metering Plate.
I believe Metering Plate Numbers are to be read with the Plate upside down and all my 2 digit plates are that way.

If it is a #6 Plate the chart shows the main hole size as a .070" and the Idle as a .026".

I Have one of the shinny 750DP Ultras with the Electric Choke coming in Today.

I will try and report my findings latter. I try very hard to stay away from the new ones for the very reasons of your example.


Mon May 15, 2017 4:47 pm
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 80
Interestingly enough I have a #9 Plate as read upside down with the same part#34R-9716B with UDC and a 2 under that.


Mon May 15, 2017 5:01 pm
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:52 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canada
supervel45 wrote:
Yes 1850's are supposed to have a #9 Metering Plate.
I believe Metering Plate Numbers are to be read with the Plate upside down and all my 2 digit plates are that way.

If it is a #6 Plate the chart shows the main hole size as a .070" and the Idle as a .026".

I Have one of the shinny 750DP Ultras with the Electric Choke coming in Today.

I will try and report my findings latter. I try very hard to stay away from the new ones for the very reasons of your example.


Yes, you're right about the #6 plate, and all the other plates I have here have the stamped number upside-down too. That must be what happened, either misread and installed by the original assembler, or maybe they were standing on their heads that day, lol. The owner bought this brand new, and says he changed/modified nothing, but only robbed it's original vacuum secondary housing for another carburetor at some point. So, this thing came, probably at a premium price, cluster-bleeped in the above listed ways, right out of the box. I trust nothing about this now. I'm going to pull the well plugs to make sure there aren't any more surprises, and establish a plain old metering block with no emulsion tubes, no high-up main well bleeds, no internal IFRs, etc... because after all, who gets the heat after I have touched it and it ends up working like crap? Me.

Interesting. Looking forward to your findings.

I'm curious as well to see what secondary main air bleeds are in the 80457 600 VS I just got, because those come with a #39 secondary metering plate, with larger 0.073" main holes...

_________________
Mike

1986 Mustang convertible. Originally 3.8L V6 with EEC-IV CFI.
Now has a Holley List-4412-2, and averages 34 (28 US) MPG.
If you're ever bored - some narrow band O2 tuning video of this thing:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9glRIa3jAAtNhaXfg_cZXQ


Tue May 16, 2017 6:31 am
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 80
I would hang onto that 9834. That was the first Holley I ever bought new and it ran excellent. I still have it now as well as several other 9834's and have run the original on several different engines with good results.

What is the dash number after the List Number on the 9834?

I am trying to get some pictures of the Ultra metering blocks for Mark but am having a hard time with it.

Still need an answer on the check ball under the secondary shooter? Is it some kind of Holley cost saving deal?

Another Odd thing is the secondary shooter screw has flats across the side of the head of the rear screw only?

It looks original and it is completely plated, so I doubt anybody filed it.

As far as you 1850 metering block I don't quite know what to tell you. Would be nice to even up the emulsion bleeds and give it a shot but, I know how that goes, easier said then done sometimes.


Tue May 16, 2017 9:04 am
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